[39] 9.8 icons & reaction

[tebtosca]

Not too many icons this week because I'm hosting Thanksgiving tomorrow and have been attempting to clean my house most of the day lol. Hope all my American flisters have a great holiday, and all my non-American flisters eat a shit ton of food in solidarity \o/



All caps by screencappednet

















And some not-so-deep thoughts:



-Can we all just agree that the writing is terrible?
-I mean, for a long time.
-And if you loved S8 and are outraged about S9
-Then you probably have "destielwuvshugs" in your tumblr name
-Shush, it's true
-With that being said, this one was filler
-Loved Sheriff Sassy, who remains flawless
-Loved her haircut and her Sheriff jacket
-And that she's finding her place in the world again
-And remains uncertain about some things and secure and strong about others
-Plus she ships wincest
-I mean, hello, people! :D
-You could tell the virgins by their eyebrows
-It's true
-Science
-Not sure why they were using their real names
-I expected John Holmes or something
-Glad to see the Death Peen is resistant to LOLCANON
-That sex monologue felt like I was spying on a meeting at Ackles Army HQ
-Why does the fat girl steal the cookies?
-I mean, that bothered me the most about the whole episode lol
-That's probably my ass talking, though
-Oh, I take it back
-The stupidest thing was Dean not answering Sam's call
-That was dumb
-The sex scene itself didn't bother me like it did some people
-I'm all for two consenting human adults having sex
-Especially on a show where sex usually involves noncon or monsters
-And how fucking sad is that?
-Low standards, yo
-I found the line about "you're the good dreams" quite telling
-Proof of my theory that Dean clings to/enjoys the small comforts
-Sex/porn/burgers/classic rock/making fun of his little brother's stupid hair
-For small, happy moments in a really shitty life
-We take comfort where we can, and there's nothing wrong with that
-The scene was cheesy because it was badly written as a porn pastiche
-But I didn't see any sort of coercion
-He was fangirling her like Dr. Sexy almost
-Suzy still had the DVDS, which tells me that she perhaps "missed that" like she later says
-People are often shamed into thinking sex is bad, especially if they were in sex work
-And sometimes they go too far into the opposite direction
-And right into the arms of another form of manipulation
-Yes, I mean religion.
-And then someone tells her not to be ashamed
-And that she has provided comfort
-And she (rather enthusiastically) decides to take what she wants
-Which was her choice and again, consent matters
-And only feels some guilt later when she's "punished", which is of course a fear embedded in the act of shaming
-But, as we know, God in this universe is banging strippers in Australia, SO.
-So, yes, awkward writing/pacing and cheesy, but I'm not layering angst on what looked like a good time had by all
-And to people that haven't realized Dean Winchester is an asshole yet...
-Oh, you!
-On a completely shallow note, Suzy was super cute and looked way hot with Jensen
-Back to the Sam Winchester Unconsciousness Tour of 2013
-I was waiting for Jody to die so Zeke heal her as Dean cradled her face, voice breaking
-Sam being dead inside...does that make Sam/Dean necro?
-Another Sam/Ruby parallel!
-This isn't going to end well, is it?

Comments

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

I thought the confessions in group were really telling. Sam said his relationships don't end well, and despite Dean's smugness about that, his story was equally sad -- always the adios. Yes, he loves teh sex, but he'd clearly like more.

[tebtosca.livejournal.com]

I think that there was a sense of nostalgia in it for Dean. I mean, he did have that domestic wake-up-with-someone experience with Lisa, and though I think he is very okay with the fact that his place is not in that world, he probably gets a bit wistful sometimes. Also, that moment was a bit poignant after the last episode with bb!Dean having to leave.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

A few peeps have commented on Dean liking simple pleasures and I totally agree I also think sex for him is an emotional out let a comfort which is why I was amazed he went without for so long. Nice to see his MOJO back even if next ep looks like it's all going down hill again. I have to say though. What is with the current drift off into G rated love scenes. It started in 8 with Sam and Amelia. The boy previous to this hooks up like a ravaging animal. He and Amelia are both grief raw and lonley there should have been buttons pinging over the room and they should have made it to the floor in their hurry and hunger not neatly into bed it was almost clinical clean. again with Rock and a Hard Place the facial expressions were comedy gold the kissing totally hot but Dean 0-undressed in 2 seconds while I gaze at you in awe Winchester hooks up with his fave P star doesn't even lose his shirt and has a hand in his pocket? in what weird twisted universe does that happen?? The lift granted was awesome but I expected nudity writhing after that speech and a quick nip to the cupboard for taccos. Is it just me or did anyone else feel from the line 'Your not like other guys in town on they were role playing lines from the movie she was in?

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

See, I never saw Sam and Amelia that way. There was no chemistry between them. I do wish they'd shown us a little more of their intimate interaction because I imagine it as a rather desperate, passionless thing -- as much wallowing in grief as reaffirming life.

I totally agree about Dean seeking pleasure in the little things. I have a post about Dean being a hedonist. I love that we saw that hasn't changed. He may hate the adios, but it's totally worth it. ;)

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

You're right we didn't see them that way but that's the way to me two folk in such a hurt and desperate place would have acted. As you say desperate clumbsy the pinging buttons not in a Mills and Boon sense more grabbing for something to hold. There relationship didn't confuse me but the way it was portrayed did if that makes sense? It was like some kind of dream sequence or indie film where the director decided to only show the more mundane moments of daily life that happened in between the emotional events it was surreal almost.

I kept thinking I had missed a scene somewhere. As usual those involved did their up most with the scene they were given just those scenes weren't the best at A explaining their relationship and B making the viewer feel empathy towards Amelia and to SAm's heartbreak and comfort senario. Maybe that's the way to describe it like souless Sam had no empathy. scenes without soul get no empathy? It was like the writers had so much to say that they couldn't squish it in only they accidently cut out the explanitory scenes instead of all fills. They had a similar problem with Purg you were left feeling like all the scenes you really needed and wanted to see got cut. Maybe if they had reunited the bros in ep 3 or 2 instead or flash backed more I mean the whole Cas got left in Purg thing could have remained from Dean's perspective when he escaped till a much later ep just as it did. Introducing us to Benny first in Purg would not have deminished the impressivness of Dean resurrecting him a few eps later than they did.

We didn't get a real chance to establish the setting so a few eps seeing Sam and Amelia fly on the wall and Dean and his mental state in purg etc would have been great. Then in say ep 3 have Dean come back have a bit more viewer only insight into Dean's PTSD his shiftiness over Benny and reunion with Sam. Then run from there. I mean I'm no show writer they have tough job to do and they do it well. Just 8 started a little slow for me a few of the eps were good eps but wouldn't have bothered the arc if they had been missing or altered. They kind of were no nutritionally padded when the same eps could have been heartily nurishing us with Purg and SAm and Amelia info if that makes sense?? By the mid season they were on to form again plot and direction wise espec with the whole trials issue it's just a shame both the SAm and Amelia and Purg storylines both got kind of lost in translation. tbc.....

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

The bigger problem for me was that they didn't show how Sam's world imploded and rained down around him. I don't understand why they wouldn't show why Sam quit hunting and didn't look for Dean. Fans who love Sam just didn't buy it, and fans who don't vilified him ... again. I think that showing that time period would have been far more compelling than seeing his domestic life with Amelia anyway. Gamble did a far better job of showing the balance of Dean's life with Lisa and Ben, than Carver did Sam with Amelia and Riot. He should have taken a lesson from that.

Purgatory had such potential, but you're right, we really didn't much of it. While I wouldn't have minded seeing more of Purgatory, I have no desire to see more of Sam and Amelia. What I saw didn't hold my interest, but it would have been great to have seen what happened between 7.23 and when Sam met Amelia. That would told us what we needed to know about his state of mind. It could have been done in a montage even like when Dean finally died in Mystery Spot, and who wrote that? Oh yeah, Carver.

I agree that both storylines kind of got lost in translation. There were a couple of times that I felt as though the ep plot and flashbacks were supposed to parallel or inform one another, but then it would get dropped. By mid-season hiatus, it seemed like all that had just been to turn the tension up to 11. I know fans who quit watching because it just got to ugly between the boys and they were tired of Sam being vilified. That's sad. I hope tptb don't ratchet up the ugliness between the boys when Sam finds out the truth this season.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

I totally agree and I got racked through the mill for saying it. I don't just mean SAm and Amelia as you say I mean from the moment Dean became goo and SAm was lost.

There were people who ripped a hole in Sam for not searching. But the way I saw it the poor guy was done, He lost his soul, His mind, went to hell, lost most of the people he loved, drove himself to dispair to get Dean out of hell, watched Dean die hundreds of times in a day and and then when he died again spent 6 months avenging his death. So many people seemed to forget he started season 7 with Lucifer using his mind as a chew toy he had been through so much he was at bottom. Even Dean by episode 4 or so was making me want to punch him and tell him to wise up, because his whole over dramatics about Sam not searching was partly 'the best form of defence is attack' because he knew he was being shady about Benny and he felt guilty. As for the whole Sam and Amelia aspect I saw it in Rock and a Hard place and I had seen it before in the ep (I'm rubbish with ep names) where Dean ends up in the 40's with Ness.

Sam and Jody have a chemistry a quiet, low key, gentle vibe that makes them very comfortable together. Why at the start of 8 could Sam have not gone and found Jody. They have been through a lot of stuff together Sam after all put her son to rest, she understood the hunt life they both lost Bobby and cared for the same people. She has been left to deal with so much alone yet she was important enough to the boys to be one of Crowley's targets the last one no less and he was picking off targets they were more connected to as the deaths went on upping his game.

I think sheltering with Jody for the year made more sense there didn't have to be romance cause they have a caring bond, but there could have been if they wanted to boggle Dean's mind :) Also I no for a fact she would have knocked sense into the two of them far sooner. CAuse to me at the end of the day the only one who had a right to be apoco pissed at Sam was Kevin and he was over it. I agree Sera was really good at that kind of thing.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Yes! I've said the exact same thing about Sam going to Jody. His statement that he was completely alone wasn't true. He had Jody! That would have made sense and been an interesting storyline, but then Sam would have had someone to back him up on his state of mind and they wouldn't have been able to create all that tension and drama between the boys.

It seemed like they wanted to reset the boys back to season 1 with Sam living a normal life and Dean wanting to hunt with his brother by his side. Unfortunately, they didn't give us any of the warmth of that relationship, just the bad blood. I hope they don't make that mistake again.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

Me too. sorry still chuckling at the 'nipple clause' have they heard of a vest he could have strip to a vest. Anyway back on point. Given Dean's stubborn assedness over Benny I think they could have still had the tension, with Jody. It might even have allowed a bit more exploration into Dean's PTSD and viewers would have had more symapathy if in flashback and discription Jody had been the one telling Dean the real home truths about how bad and low it got for SAm. Don't get me wrong I didn't hate the cursed coin ep but I wouldn't have missed it not being there it didn't need to take an evil coin to get them to that break through point. We def don't need anymore bad blood.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

Cool I'll need to check out your post thanks. For me Dean does seek little things pleasure but not just in a throw away or hedonistic sense although he has that streak :) For me deep down Dean is kind of emotionally fragile; mummy abandonment issues. Never feeling like the good enough son. Scared he can never be good enough, that he can't protect and save everyone he cares about he feels broken unworthy and Sex, Drink, and Food comfort his soul gives him releases. That's why The sudden 'G' rating of his sex scenes makes even less sense.

I want to see the point he went from Dean of 'Bad Boys' first kissing Robin at 16, which surprised me cause guys with Dean like reps aren't usually virgins nevermind first kissers at 16. To the alleged ladies loverman he is now. There has to be a back story for when Dean became 'a man' some older Mrs Robinson type or a hooker who took interest in him aged maybe 17 in a roadside bar somewhere who took this smart mouthed bundle of issues and taught him the tricks and confidence that made him the self assured lover he clearly is cause that was the one thing he was never nervous or shy about it was a central part of his personality his MOJO and only in season 7 did his confidence in that prowess falter in the Osiris ep. Then Lydia went and ruined it for him and he shut down completely until now. I mean in season 8 'Trial and Error' when he turned down Ellie.. This a man who had sex with an angel cause she offered even when he was under iminant threat of going back to hell. Who's first thought that he might not see tomorrow was to try to shack up with Jo. All he did with Ellie was turn her down and barely kiss back then get all sheepish. A total departure from the real Dean. Then with Suzy he was all cocky again the nervousness gone and we thought yeah he's back to his full Dean-ness but then they give us only half a moment of glory about it by keeping him fully dressed it was so out of character. It feels like someone or something in the background in the world of making the show has insisted the guys cover up but it's so out of character.

So sorry I have gone on and on won't blame you if you dont read half of this :)

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

For some reason LJ is being a little bitch and screwing up my replies. So let me see if I can remember what I wrote ...

I don't buy that Dean had never been kissed at 16. According to writer Adam Glass, he made Dean 14 in Bad Boys but when they saw Dylan Everett, they thought he looked older and changed Dean's age to 16. That's why Sam looked much younger than 12. If we take John Winchester's journal as a canon timeline (and Kripke did approve it) then Dean had a girlfriend at age 14. I don't take Bad Boys as canon as far as Dean's age then. I think that his genesis to being a Romeo is much more natural and convincing too if he were younger.

Lydia -- yeah that would take the wind out of any guy's sails. I wasn't surprised that he turned down Ellie because he was dealing with hellhounds, but I would have thought his request for a rain check would have been more convincing. I liked seeing him back to his old self with Suzy; although I found him ignoring Sam's repeated calls in the middle of a hunt problematic. The G-rated sex scenes are weird. If rumor is to be believed, Jensen has a "no nipples" clause in his contract now. I can understand the actors not wanting to go around half naked in every ep, but sometimes the scene calls for it, and it is really out of character for Dean.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

LMAO Is it wrong that I'm laughing at that 'No nipples' clause sounds like something from Monty Python. I really hope it's not true, He's a bloke he want's to try being a woman with them LOL, LMAO sorry still laughing that is the most redic thing I ever heard. I don't believe he would do that he's not some diva type and anyway weve already seen them. That aside I think someone somewhere behind the scenes has def said something that has brought around this state of full dress and I fully agree it's ruining the feel of the show and specifically unfitting for Dean. He could of at least taken off his tartan shirt for crying out loud.

As for the whole 'Bad Boys' thing Dylan would have passed for 14 so they created an issue out of nothing and skewed the time line which is a shame cause Sam looked more unreasonably young than Dean did old which is a shame cause it was a great ep aside from that. Yep I go by John's journal when I want to look stuff up too it's a great resources. I kind of feel like the writers are doing a grand job but it wouldn't hurt for them over the Christmas break to have a 1-8 mamrathon and take notes for detail cause I'm amazed with all the little details I forget everytime I have one. Dean to me would be def kissing by 14 possibly had sex by 16 considering the average for that type of dude is 15 unless you are David Coverdale and then it's about 12. Yep he could have been more convincing with Ellie. We actually had a twitter drive for a while called 'Get Dean Laid' cause as you can see in anything I write about him fic wise I have a strong belief sex is a strong aspect of Dean's personality his vitality, his MOJO and it goes along with his cheeky humour when he's at his best. Yeah Lydia was a monsterous bitch but it shouldn't have taken 2 seasons.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the 'no nipple' thing seems weird. Maybe Jensen made a deal with Danneel that he wouldn't show his if she didn't show hers anymore. LOL It may just be a rumor, IDK, and I don't watch other CW shows, but don't they have show skin?

They did drop the ball on Dean's PTSD, and they could have shown a stronger parallel between Dean having survivor's guilt when Cas was left behind and Sam having it when he was the only one left in the lab after the S7 finale, but again they didn't show what happened to Sam between that and meeting Amelia. I think we can just agree that the first half of S8 was a mess.

This season ... I just wish they'd pay more attention to the minutiae as Glass put it because canon does matter. If fans can't trust them to get that stuff right, why should we trust them with the big picture? I enjoyed the old school lighting and camera work of the past couple of episodes. They were scarier and had tighter plots. I don't care for the eps that have two plots going on at once. They seem rushed and unfocused. I used to really like Cas, but I think they've just been scrambling for something to do with him for three seasons now. He's become the third wheel for me, and his war in heaven has become like Vietnam. It just drags on and on with ever changing players. Meh.

I suppose that Dean tricking Sam into letting Ezekiel in is supposed to be like Sam's "betrayal" in partnering with Ruby. I don't like the continued violation of Sam's agency as a plot device in the show, but maybe it is time that Dean be the one to screw up so royally since both Sam and Cas have gone down the path to hell with good intentions. I want to like this season, but they haven't convinced me I should yet.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

Yep the CW is known for plying trade for the teen to 25 so there is plenty of skin going on. I wondered if it was a network thing or because of age but Somerhalder is the same age as Jensen and Misha has got shirtless twice this season.

To be honest I would be kind of Po'd if this change was some kind of call from the home front of his 'Real' life. Jensen and Dean are two separate entities, two different personas and I would hate to think he would compromise the integrity of Dean and compromise his well established character in order to appease his totally separate private life so I hope that's not the case cause to me kissing is a far more intimate act than shirtless ness, you sign up for a gig like Dean then these are the jobs you do. As has been the case you skew a characters reality and break the disbelief when you start pandering to outside forces who ever they maybe, it's whole ass or nothing (not literally) when it comes to a character like Dean. No half assing it.

Also being meek now would be like waving to the horse as it ran the opposite way from the stable you were locking. I've seen Ten Inch Hero and SPN so even I have seen them both shirtless and they have nothing to be hiding. Also it's on film for celluloid eternity already it will be seen and commented on by people who know your kids. I was kind of worried it was a self conscience thing on Jensen's part because he's older I hope that's not the case either to be honest I don't care how firm or not Dean's body is and I don't think Dean would either in that situation he would be to occupied by getting with a chick from his good dreams.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

Totally with you on the PTSD front and the parallels can you imagine the beautiful drama that would have made, the depth it would have touched and the better understanding fandom would have had and sympathy for each bros situation. S 8 at the start dropped a few balls but it was new establishment or reestablishment coming in and it's all well and good I suppose for us to say this and this and this would work in hindsight. However they were on a tight schedule creating from scratch. So just have to chalk it up to missed opportunity and keep it in mind for patch and repair work as we go forward. Give them their dues they were firing on all cylinders come 'Sacrifice' such a strong finish to 8.

The problem with Cas has been the fandom response to him and Misha. They feel they have to elevate his character time when I'm going to be blatantly honest here, they don't. I really appreciate Cas as a character and like Misha but SPN to me is a pyramid and from the day they killed off John that 3 person topper became a two only. Sam and Dean are the central heart. the next tier down Bobby, Cas, Crowley and so on and so on now. Last season Kevin was second tier now he's pushed to third. Second tier this season is prob Zeke, Cas Abaddon and Crowley Jody could potentially be a third tier character now if they were savy along side Charley. My point is the second to mid tiers of the pyramid characters rotate in and out of prevalence. The top tier is the bros solid never changing and the bottom of the pyramid changes per episode they are the supporting cast.

I think Cas is a secondary character. Although at the same time because they have gone down the evac heaven follow the tablets route he is a very central secondary character at the moment. secondary on the second tier only to Zeke

But it's the bro's perspective and presence that takes us in and out of the stories of the SPN world and their interaction with those events is the heart. So I feel Cas is an important secondary character but not as central to the frame as he has been pushed for example. The CW ad has Sam, Dean and Cas pushing Cas to a character level on the tier he's not.

Really they should have had Sam, Dean first tier and Cas and Sam blue eyed as Zeke two secondary characters if they wanted him in that ad. The PR would never have put Abaddon on the ad because they think fandom would pee their pants at the disruption of eye candy ( how bloody shallow do they think we are) and Crowley would be classed as too old sorry Mark.

Their other option would have been to have Sam, Dean, Cas and Kevin if they didn't want to give the Zeke game away prematurely, that would have reflected the two star characters and two secondary characters who in season 8 were lynch pin to the story which they are continuing on into this season.


If they play mid season right tomorrow night then the pay off for Cas's Nam will be well worth the drag but it will now be Sam and Dean's fight. Cas's existance in the bro's life and their experience of watching and being players with him in this struggle has led to the expected his background lays the foundations for their big battle as it did with Michael and Lucifer. As it will when they become central to Angel Royale the worlds fate will rest ultimately on Sam and Dean.

I do like this season I ave to say, yes there are things I would change but ultimately the start has been strong it all hangs on mid-season and how well tey utilies the plot and army of characters at their disposal. I feel some characters have been thrown away at times i.e Crowley and Kevin but that could be turned good in a heartbeat with the right plot choices. I'm glad Charlie is in OZ cause I love her but she has no place in this fight she is from another friendship group in their life....

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

For me the show was always Sam and Dean even before John's death. I like Cas as I did Bobby, but they are/were secondary characters. We all have favorites, but none of those third or seconds need to be elevated into a primary character. I personally have a problem with Kevin and Charlie because they've taken Sam's spot as the brain of the operation. I realize they needed someone as a prophet, but why they needed two additional computer geeks is beyond me. Too bad they didn't think of Charlie when they needed a prophet. Again, it makes them do screwy things like send Kevin to Branson where he was most definitely not safe, so they could bring Charlie to the bunker for the Oz ep was silly.

I agree on the ads. There's really no need to push Castiel to that position other than fan service.

I hope they plan something important for Charlie though. Otherwise what was the point of that ep. I feel sometimes that they lose focus. They introduced Bartholomew and then dropped him. Abaddon has been sporadic in the plotline. Everything does hang on the mid-season eps. I think that the fallout of Dean's agreement with Ezekiel must play an important part of this. Again, a decision that Dean made to save Sam will have celestial implications, I think.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I'm saying There only will ever be two main stars of this verse of Supernatural. They have def so far underplayed the use of Abaddon, Crowley and Bart the whole Buddy Boyle thing has died on it's ass almost I was expecting more build before the big fight but that can be fixed. If Sam is the men of letters half of the historic hunter campbell Dean, MOL Winchester Sam combination then Sam should really be the man in charge of a crack team Kevin and Charlie learning fro mhim as much as they bring info. The Branston thing made no sense why couldn't he be part of it it would have fitted his character well it could have been the start of forming the MOL staff. I have a feeling we will see the queen of moons again possibly even in OZ.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, absolutely. They need to stop isolating Sam from the other members of the team. It was good to see Sam and Kevin working together, but we need more of that. Dean may be the strategist, as suggested in LARP and the Real Girl, but Sam is the brain, the one who pulls the info together and makes the connections.

The Oz ep, man there was just so much wrong with it on the technical end. My guy, better known around here as Scruffy, was pausing every ten seconds to rail against how you couldn't hook that old analogue computer to a modern computer, and there was no harddrive to store anything on it to download anyway. *headdesk* How could they get that so wrong? And Charlie ran off with Dorothy before doing what she came there to do, which was get that map to alert them to where angels were. Oy! So, yeah, I hope there some bigger purpose to Charlie than representation.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

What is going on not sure if replies are posting... Totally with you on the PTSD front and the parallels can you imagine the beautiful drama that would have made, the depth it would have touched and the better understanding fandom would have had and sympathy for each bros situation. S 8 at the start dropped a few balls but it was new establishment or reestablishment coming in and it's all well and good I suppose for us to say this and this and this would work in hindsight. However they were on a tight schedule creating from scratch. So just have to chalk it up to missed opportunity and keep it in mind for patch and repair work as we go forward. Give them their dues they were firing on all cylinders come 'Sacrifice' such a strong finish to 8.

The problem with Cas has been the fandom response to him and Misha. They feel they have to elevate his character time when I'm going to be blatantly honest here, they don't. I really appreciate Cas as a character and like Misha but SPN to me is a pyramid and from the day they killed off John that 3 person topper became a two only. Sam and Dean are the central heart. the next tier down Bobby, Cas, Crowley and so on and so on now. Last season Kevin was second tier now he's pushed to third. Second tier this season is prob Zeke, Cas Abaddon and Crowley Jody could potentially be a third tier character now if they were savy along side Charley. My point is the second to mid tiers of the pyramid characters rotate in and out of prevalence. The top tier is the bros solid never changing and the bottom of the pyramid changes per episode they are the supporting cast.

I think Cas is a secondary character. Although at the same time because they have gone down the evac heaven follow the tablets route he is a very central secondary character at the moment. secondary on the second tier only to Zeke

But it's the bro's perspective and presence that takes us in and out of the stories of the SPN world and their interaction with those events is the heart. So I feel Cas is an important secondary character but not as central to the frame as he has been pushed for example. The CW ad has Sam, Dean and Cas pushing Cas to a character level on the tier he's not.

Really they should have had Sam, Dean first tier and Cas and Sam blue eyed as Zeke two secondary characters if they wanted him in that ad. The PR would never have put Abaddon on the ad because they think fandom would pee their pants at the disruption of eye candy ( how bloody shallow do they think we are) and Crowley would be classed as too old sorry Mark.

Their other option would have been to have Sam, Dean, Cas and Kevin if they didn't want to give the Zeke game away prematurely, that would have reflected the two star characters and two secondary characters who in season 8 were lynch pin to the story which they are continuing on into this season.


If they play mid season right tomorrow night then the pay off for Cas's Nam will be well worth the drag but it will now be Sam and Dean's fight. Cas's existance in the bro's life and their experience of watching and being players with him in this struggle has led to the expected his background lays the foundations for their big battle as it did with Michael and Lucifer. As it will when they become central to Angel Royale the worlds fate will rest ultimately on Sam and Dean.

I do like this season I ave to say, yes there are things I would change but ultimately the start has been strong it all hangs on mid-season and how well tey utilies the plot and army of characters at their disposal. I feel some characters have been thrown away at times i.e Crowley and Kevin but that could be turned good in a heartbeat with the right plot choices. I'm glad Charlie is in OZ cause I love her but she has no place in this fight she is from another friendship group in their life....

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

For me I was 100% behind Dean in the choice he made in the circumstances he had he was even actually deliberating painfully about it didn't just jump in feet first. Sam as Jared says though was ready to go so he will be much grieved about what Dean has done.

We still have to ovecome the how Sam found out, the how he survives without Zeke or if he can even get him out of his body. I mean if they get Zeke out it sounds like physically at best Sam will end up in a care home he is so damaged unless Cas or a character stronger than Cas can heal him. Cas said he was damaged in ways even he couldn't heal. Either that or they trap an unconcious Zeke inside Sam. Either way the dust is going to have to part settle on battle at least for recriminations to really fly.

Dean has been down this road to well intentioned lies before last time he ended up in hell for it. Although in the past he has been known to be a bit one rule for Dean one rule for everyone else about these things and I think they have come to a maturity level now, Sam especially where that just won't cut it anymore. I think the continued violation of Sam is because he is the original Supernatural imbued being of the two bro's up until Michael Dean was the fully human big bro protecting his 'theres something different about him' little bro who had the slightly supernaturally special something. I don't know horror very well but I suppose you could say Sam is Carol Ann something in his being absorbs and draws these phenomenon. Dean's all to human and doing his best

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

I think that Dean made the only decision that he's capable of making under the circumstances. I think that Sam would understand that. I think the issue will be that Dean didn't come clean after the fact and give Sam the choice. He should have. I haven't trusted Ezekiel from the beginning for the way he's played on Dean's fears. Hopefully we'll get some answers this week.

As for the continued violation of Sam's agency, this time with Dean's permission, it is becoming a little too horrific for me. I have a friend who quit watching two seasons ago because of what she termed "Sam abuse." He was ready to die at the end of last season. I just wonder how much more can they damage the poor guy and have him survive. What is their end game? I hope it isn't A. become an angel or B. accept Lucifer a la End!Verse.
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I was hoping earlier in the season that he would be healed, Ezekiel would refuse to leave, the whole ejection thing would be a lie, and Dean would offer himself as a vessel to make amends to Sam. That would have been an interesting twist, and Dean needs to learn what it's like to be the one without free will. The other thing that would have been if Ezekiel had underestimated Sam, and Sam had subsumed the angel when he turned out not to be a friend and used him as a power source. I mean if they insist on tying Sam to the supernatural, why not let him be a human with supernatural powers and use them for good?

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

I didn't like Zeke from the Jump either they made Benny a good bad guy so I fear they are making Angels douches part of me hopes what we see in that clip is Zeke and Dean fobbing off the other angels and that Zeke will heal Sam and let him go but that is way to cheery and easy so I concur with you on Sam absorbing Zeke he has the capacity for it . I don't think Sam sees it a being violated he sees it as his sucks often duty. Just as Dean sees having Sam's back while he faces all these things his. Even if he often gets it wrong. I agree though Sam has been through so much and that's why the whole down play of what he went through at start of 8 bugged me. As we have already discussed. If anything happens to Sam if he dies even in a temp sense. If he and Dean part ways. A I hope he goes to Jody this time and B Dean may have his long over due breakdown. I think Sam superpowered would be great it's time he embraced his difference and claimed it instead of being led by others by it or ashamed of it.

[spnmonster.livejournal.com]

That does sound like a Monty Python bit. LOL

Yeah, in solving the non-existent problem of Dylan looking older than 14, they created more problems. My headcanon has always been that Dean lost his virginity at 13-14 -- even before I read John's journal. That just confirmed it. I was completely floored by the kiss scene in Bad Boys. I don't think tptb realize how something like that jerks the viewer out of the narrative.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

LOL I can hear them in my head giving such a weird thing the full Python treatment so I shall write to them and suggest it as a skit for their new show that is quickly becoming a tour LOL.

They really did give themselves headaches out of nothing and I agree I expected Robin and Dean to be each others firsts, I mean what a great parallel that would have been Dean's first sexual experience followed by an ep that was him making his way back to the sexual fold. Although they morally or legally can't show under age sex they could have alluded to sex. It was kind of like they were fearful to rock the apple cart and in doing so they went to fluffy and puppy love it was very sweet but not ness the Dean we know which means that in order to restore narrative and character balance somewhere down the road they will have to create a complimenting ep that explains Dean's sexual awakening and development into the man of strongly sexual and vital personality he became.

Jerking viewers out of narrative the huge no no in fictional creative drama based media. The breaking of 'the suspension of disbelief' A cardinal narrative sin espec in a show where the character history and story is so complex tangible and strongly and beautifully established as a self standing alt reality.

For me the excessively toned down sex scene is the model I expected to see in 'Bad Boys' only with a sweet innocence and nervous build up. Meanwhile 'Rock and a Hard Place' should have properly shown a sex scene, circa Dean of old, laying on the floor intense glances, movement, heavy kissing, removal of clothing etc.

Dean does gentle but intensely sexual and I think like he was with Anna in the Impala that type of intensity and allude to sex would have been perfect with Suzy they are both getting their feet wet again. Even if they had panned away from their moving bodies following Dean's hand towards where his shirt was or into the pocket of the jeans he still wore and we saw him pull a condom out of his pocket (appropriate turned on noises in the background) Then that would have said volumes without seeing a thing. I.e. I'm over my hang ups with Lydia, Ive learned my lesson, yes sex is going happen here with Suzy, then fade to Honor in the bunker. They created an anti climax in which if you blink you wonder did they actually have sex or just make out really intensely if the goddess hadn't nabbed them we still wouldn't be sure.

They built up to it beautifully the perfect balance of humour, heat and shyness and then chickened out of giving us nods to days of old. Which just left an unsatisfied feeling, As you say they are giving us such great nods to early seasons a more sexual sex scene would have been fitting.

[pjmarshall80.livejournal.com]

The only reason I can think there would be for such a thing as a 'no nipple' clause is if something has happened to him or one of them medically. That makes me worry for him so I'm hoping it's just a rumour ?